February 11, 2015

Contenders for Greatest Of All Time (Men)

There have always been debates about who is the Greatest Of All Time (GOAT). Most end up with a ranking. But a ranking for GOAT is not the same thing as listing the actual contenders. There are players who are arguably among the best of all time, perhaps even top five, who don't really have a good argument for being the actual GOAT. And there are others who might have an argument for being the GOAT who might not make the top five or even top ten list for others.

Also note that "Greatest" is not the same as "Best." Every generation is usually better than the previous one (better techniques, training methods, and equipment), and any modern sponge champion would easily defeat the hardbat champions of the past, as well as the early sponge players. But "Greatest" is a relative term, and so we are looking at how they did relative to their peers. I do take into consideration how strong the competition was. For example, in the very early days of table tennis there simply were not many serious players, and so the level was not very high, and I don't see them as being as "Great" as a more modern player where there are many thousands of players training full-time all over the world. You have to find a balance here, though ultimately it's a judgment call.

So here is my listing for those who at least have a solid argument as being the GOAT. I'm not going to rank them; my goal is to list all those who are the real contenders, and let others then choose among them and perhaps rank them. For today I'm going to only cover the men; I'll likely do women later. For reference, here are listings for World Champions (singles and doubles), World Champions (teams), Olympic Champions, and World Cup Champions. Note that table tennis didn't get into the Olympics until 1988, and the first World Cup was in 1980, so players before those years didn't have those opportunities. On the other hand, the World Championships were held annually until 1957, but has been bi-annual since, so modern players have only half as many opportunities to win the Worlds.

HARDBAT ERA

From this period there are two possible contenders. Viktor Barna (Hungarian and then emigrated to England) won Men's Singles at the Worlds five times, including four in a row (1932-35, as well as 1930). He also was 8-time World Men's Doubles Champion (with three different partners), 2-time World Mixed Doubles Champion, and 7-time World Men's Team Champion. That's 22 titles at the Worlds, the most ever. He is an obvious choice.

Richard Bergmann of Austria (and later England) is the other possible contender from the hardbat era. At first glance, his credentials don't match up against Barna's. He won Men's Singles at the Worlds "only" four times (1937, 1939, 1948, 1950), and only three other titles - Men's Doubles only once (with Barna) and Men's Teams twice. However, his career was disrupted twice, first by World War II (no World Championships between 1939 and 1947, what were probably his peak years), and then in 1952 with the coming up sponge. He also is regarded as the best defensive player from the hardbat era. However, to be the GOAT you have to have the credentials, and while he might have been "cheated" out of some, he ended up with only seven titles at the Worlds to Barna's 22, and one less World Men's Singles Title.

Bohumil Vana of Czechoslovakia won Men's Singles twice, in 1938 and 1947, with World War II sandwiched in between. He won Men's Doubles and Mixed Doubles three times each, and Men's Teams five times, a total of 13 titles. Like Bergmann, his best years were lost to World War II. But also like Bergmann, his credentials just don't match up to Barna's. Another possible contender is Johnny Leach of England, who won Men's Singles twice (1949 and 1951), Men's Teams once (1953), and no doubles titles. Good, but not comparable to Barna.  

So with great misgiving I remove Bergmann, Vana, and Leach from the list of possible contenders of GOAT, leaving Barna as clearly the GOATFTHBE - Greatest Of All Time From The Hard Bat Era.

EARLY SPONGE ERA

This would be from 1952 (when Hiroji Satoh of Japan introduces sponge) to the coming of the looping era, which roughly started with Hasegawa in 1967. Some would argue Satoh's impact on the game with his sponge racket makes him a contender, but he only won one title at the Worlds, Men's Singles in 1952. So he's not a GOAT contender. But there are three possible contenders.

Ichiro Ogimura of Japan won Men's Singles twice (1954 and 1956), and also won Men's and Mixed Doubles twice each, and Men's Teams six times. However, his biggest impact on the game was his development of stroking techniques and advanced training. He was the primary reason for Japan's rise to power in the 1950s, and indirectly to China's, whose coaches and players studied films of him, including instructional ones he created. He spent much of his later life teaching and popularizing the game, and is arguably the most influential player ever.

Ogimura's Teammate, Toshiaki Tanaka, also won the Worlds Twice (1955 and 1957), Men's Teams five times, but no doubles titles. He's an all-time great, but doesn't match up with Ogimura.

Zhuang Zedong of China was the dominant player in the early 1960s, winning Men's Singles three straight times (1961, 1963, 1965), Men's Teams four times, but only one doubles title, Men's Doubles in 1965. For many years he was considered by many the GOAT. However, many Chinese players from that era have since said that his opponent in all three Men's Singles Finals, Li Furong, was ordered to dump each time. This wasn't Zhuang's fault, but does somewhat tarnish these titles. Zhuang might have won more titles but the Chinese Cultural Revolution interrupted, and China did not take part in the 1967 and 1969 World Championships, and in the 1971 Worlds Zhuang defaulted rather than play against a Cambodian player in the early rounds who Zhuang said (likely under pressure from the Chinese government), that he refused to play against "…players who represent governments [that are] enemies of the Cambodian and the Vietnamese people," and then explaining that the squads representing those countries were "puppets of US imperialism." (From "Ping-Pong Diplomacy," by Nicholas Griffin, page 187).

So I'll put down Ogimura and Zhuang as the two contenders for the GOAT from the Early Sponge Era.

MIDDLE SPONGE ERA

I'll put this down as from 1967 to 1987, roughly the start of the looping era and ending when the European two-winged looping style (later adopted by China) would begin to completely dominate the game, as well as the sport's debut at the Olympics. Ironically, though looping was introduced here, many of the titles during this time were won by pips-out penholders - but their games were developed around defeating the looping game. From 1967 to 1979 there were seven Worlds, and seven different players won Men's Singles, and none would win a second.

Guo Yuehua of China won Men's Singles two times in a row (1981 and 1983), as well as making the finals the two previous Worlds, so he was in the final four times in a row (1977-1983). He also won Men's Doubles in 1983, and Men's Teams three times. He won the World Cup in 1980 and 1982. For many years when players argued who was the GOAT, he and Zhuang were the two modern (at the time) contenders. Like Zhuang, this is partly tarnished by the rumors of dumping. Ironically, many believe that Guo was ordered to dump to the Japanese in the Finals in 1977 and 1979 (since the Chinese in those days were focused on winning the Teams), while his opponent and teammate in the 1981 and 1983 finals (Cai Zhenhua) was ordered to dump to him. But there's no question Guo is a contender for GOAT.

Another possible is Jiang Jialiang of China, who won Men's Singles twice (1985 and 1987), and Men's Teams three times. He also won the World Cup in 1984. He's an all-time great, but doesn't quite match up to Guo.

So from the Middle Sponge Era there is one contender: Guo Yuehua.

MODERN SPONGE ERA

This is from 1988 to the present (2015). Jan-Ove Waldner of Sweden is the first obvious choice. He won Men's Singles twice (1989 and 1997, winning the latter without losing a game, the only person in history to do that), as well as making the Final two other times (1987 and 1991), and the semifinals two other times. He never won a doubles title at the Worlds, but he led Sweden to victory in Men's Teams four times, showing that the Europeans could compete with the Chinese, and forcing the Chinese mostly disregard their traditional close-to-table pips-out playing styles and conventional penhold game and copy the European two-winged inverted looping game. Waldner also won the World Cup in 1990. He won Men's Singles Gold at the Olympics in 1992 and the Silver in 2000. In most online discussions (in English), he is considered by most the GOAT, though that might be somewhat unfair as the discussions are dominated by non-Chinese, and the Chinese contenders often split their vote. Also, players from the past (such as Barna) are often forgotten in these discussions.

Two other players in the modern era won Men's Singles at the Worlds at least twice. Wang Liqin of China won three times (2001, 2005, 2007), won Men's Doubles and Mixed Doubles twice each, and won Men's Teams four times (according to Wikipedia, though I believe he has been part of the team that has won it seven straight times since 2001). He didn't win singles at the Olympics, getting the Bronze in 2004 and 2008, though he won gold medals for Men's Doubles in 2000 and Men's Teams in 2008. He never won the World Cup, though he was in the final once and won the bronze four times. His performance at the Worlds makes him a contender for the GOAT, but his performance at the Olympics and World Cup weakens his record. His forehand loop was often called the shot that dominated a decade, and is considered by many the greatest forehand of all time. He dominated the world rankings for most of 2001-2007 with a #1 ranking 52 different months, the most since 2001 - and he was #1 at the start of 2001, so likely had more months as #1.

The other possible modern contender is Zhang Jike of China, who has won Men's Singles twice (2011 and 2013). He also won Men's Teams three times, but no doubles titles (though he was in the Mixed Doubles final once, and Men's Doubles semifinals twice). He won the Gold Medal for Men's Singles and Teams at the 2012 Olympics. He won the World Cup in 2011 and 2014, as well as making the final in 2010. However, while he's won a lot of titles in the few years he's competed, it's still too early for him to judge. Despite all these titles, he's only been ranked #1 in the world for seven months of his career, all back in 2012, because he doesn't do very well in events such as the ITTF World Tour. If he were to retire right now, he'd be an all-time great, but he doesn't quite match up with Waldner and Wang Liqin. But he's really, really close - one more big title and he's in. 

There are other players from the Modern Era who would ranked very high in all-time listings, in particular Jorgen Persson of Sweden (1991 Men's Singles Champion, 1989 Finalist, 4-time World Team Champion, 1991 World Cup Champion); Kong Linghui of China (1995 Men's Singles Champion, 3-time Men's Doubles Champion, 4-time Team Champion, 2000 Olympic Men's Singles Gold Medalist and Men's Doubles Silver Medalist, 1996 Olympic Men's Doubles Gold Medalist, 1995 World Cup Champion and 1997 and 2002 Finalist); and Liu Guoliang of China (1999 World Men's Singles Champion, 2-time Men's Doubles Champion, one-time Mixed Doubles Champion, 3-time World Team Champion, 1996 Olympic Men's Singles and Doubles Gold Medalist, 2000 Olympic Men's Singles Bronze Medalist and Men's Doubles Silver Medalist, and 1996 World Cup Champion). It's difficult to put them aside, but they are marginally behind Waldner and Wang Liqin. Leaving out Kong and Liu as contenders for GOAT were two of the toughest decisions here - but while both are arguably near the very top, I don't think either is arguably the GOAT.

So from the Modern Sponge Era there are two contenders: Jan-Ove Waldner and Wang Liqin. 

And so we are left with six contenders for the Greatest of All Time - not necessarily the six greatest of all time, but the six that, in my opinion, have an argument for being the Greatest Of All Time. Take your pick. 

  • Viktor Barna
  • Ichiro Ogimura
  • Zhuang Zedong
  • Guo Yuehua
  • Jan-Ove Waldner
  • Wang Liqin

North American Grand Final - Final

Here's the video (19:58, with time between points removed except when there's commentating, and some slow motion replay) between Eugene Wang and Bob Chen, with Jim Butler commentating. There's a lot to learn by watching this - study how Eugene controls the points, and the great attacking strokes of Bob Chen.

Ask the Coach

Episode #74 (22:35) - Importance of Backhands

  • Yesterday's #PQOTD  - 1:28: Has the backhand become more important over the last 10 years?
  • Question 1 - 3:38: How does Ma Long get so much power from his backhand? Abdul
  • Question 2 - 4:44: How do you do the fastest legal serve? Abdul
  • #PQOTD  - 6:28: Where will Portugal be ranked at the end of 2015? 1 CHINA 2 GERMANY 3 JAPAN 4 KOREA REPUBLIC 5 PORTUGAL 6 CHINESE TAIPEI 7 HONG KONG 8 AUSTRIA 9 FRANCE 10 SWEDEN
  • Question 3 - 7:20: What's up PingSkills! My strokes improves very much every time I practise now :) i played with the tall guy yesterday and he won, he beat me easily. But I did win 5 points against him, he won 21- 5. I'm Proud :)))))) Just so you know ;)
  • Question 4 - 8:03: Recently I watched a live match. Do professional players really play better when they are cheered for? I doubt it... Several times it looked to me like Timo was standing at the table waiting for the spectators to calm down before he made his serve. Thomas
  • Question 5 - 12:43: If I practise a topspin everyone says that I should make the stroke relaxed. But when I relax and make the loop freely, it ends in the net or I miss the ball. Do you have any idea where is the mistake? DK
  • Question 6 - 15:45: I find that when I try to smash high returns from my opponent I frequently badly hit those with heavy backspin.  I'm ready for hitting a winner, and instead it dives into the net.  I feel suckered. What should I do if I see that type of shot? Richard
  • Question 7 - 18:18: Who is the better one out of Alois and Jeff? Abdul
  • Question 8 - 18:35: Do you think Jan Ove Waldner would play one more match before he retires? Brock
  • Question 9 - 19:08: I felt that my backhand push became spinnier and more consistent after I employed my backhand serve more and more in my game. Is it just my feeling or is it true that player can improve his/her backhand push through practicing backhand serve? Erriza
  • Question 10 - 21:35: How old were you guys when you first compete in a tournament? Brock

Waldner - Persson Point

Here's video (22 sec) of a rally ending with a trademark Persson backhand smash.

USA Table Tennis and PepPod to Partner to Power Pong in the U.S.

Here's the USATT article.

Theory into Practice: Coaches Supervise Ecuador Para Training Camp

Here's the ITTF article. Here's a related ITTF article, Idyllic Horizon but Dawn Breaks with New Hopes for Bermuda.

"Table Tennis Has No Suspense"

Here's the article from TableTennista where Ma Lin says this about Chinese domination.

Killerspin Paradise

Here's the article about a luxury table tennis resort on the Italian island Sardinia.

The Perfect Match: Kit and Marisol - a Ping Pong Couple

Here's the article.

Forrest Gump #16 in Movie Characters with Olympic Potential

Here's the list! But some of these don't make sense. How can Forrest be behind Lincoln Hawk (#13, played by Sylvester Stallone), an arm wrestler, which isn't even an Olympic sport? Or Lamar Latrell's illegal javelin (#12)? And don't get me started on #8, Thornton Melon's diving. I'll accept Legolas and his archery, though that should be #1.

Ping Pong Ball Extinguisher Trick Shot

Here's the video (48 sec, including slow motion replay and different angles) of a player putting out a candle.

***

Send us your own coaching news!